the whole christmas thing

Hi,

would love to hear some thoughts on this. For some years now I've been pulling back from the whole christmas thing and for some years now my hubby has been either coming with me to do the christmas shopping for the kids or this year he went and did some himself. Even with the christmas lunch he cooked some, and both my kids contributed to the lunch, and we made some things together. I felt much better about it but it wasn't as I would have liked. The presents that my hubby bought were from one of the cheap shops, a couple of little toys, and our lunch turned out really nice but the getting it out onto the table was more chaotic. I like the direction that I am going in but there are some payouts for me, like it isn't happening as I would have liked it to - I am having to let go - and this is difficult. How can something feel and good and bad at the some time but that is the closest I can get to explaining how it felt. I think it is difficult for my hubby as well. I think he would love it if I pampered him but then I would be going against myself and the way I would like things to be. Its tricky. How was it for you??

cheers, Ginalol

PS: I want some pampering too - should we have pampering days - dedicated to one person at a time?!

Last edited by mbhadmin : 19-01-2007 at 07:34 PM. Reason: an inclusion that I didn't see at first

  #2      

Bah humbug

Well this has been a weird Christmas for me... the first without my Mother.
( she passed away in Oct after a long illness ) so it has felt all melancholy and yet quite liberating at the same time, if that makes sense.

I did feel a bit like Scrooge at times when that elusive Christmas spirit felt like a bouncer who wouldn't let me in, and yet I had moments! Good moments.

My kids did save some money and I took them to purchase significant gifts for their father and hoped that he'd get the hint from the kids ( 9 and 13 yrs ) that it might be worth reciprocating. He didn't, so I was more explicit and made a diary date for them all that he would take them shopping for me ( is that being too bossy?!) and I left a list with my 9 y/o who inherited the organiser gene.

To my surprise I actually had a nice gift this year from H into the bargain. Sometimes he can also be a bit on the cheap shop side as well, but this year perhpas he scored my dose of Christmas spirit?

I generally get more time just before Christmas so I get to do the organising: my work ( teaching ) breaks up a few days before his. SO I guess I shoulder the burden of organisation. H is good at housework. He does more cleaning than I do. I just loathe cleaning. I love anything creative but please don't ask me to clean a bathroom!

Of issue with me on this topic at present is the fact that most of my freinds in relationships (with kids ) who work outside the home employ a cleaner. This person is usually, but not exclusively female. Part of me just can't come at paying poor hourly rates for domestic chores. DO you???
I would rather have a scummy shower cubicle than feel guilty that somebody else who I might pay less per hour that I earn, cleaned it. Am I a sad tragic or does anybody else out there feel like I do on this issue?

__________________
:::iona:::

  #3      

clash of ideals?

Quote:

Hi there Ginalol i will diverge a bit - xmas isn't the issue for me - but i can relate to your theme of control vs letting go. my hunch is that it's a biggy in most relationships. I am a self-confessed control freak; and sometimes i think my hd is right in that my standards are too high and i need to trust him more/ let him do things his way. And then other times i just WISH that he could be the one loosing a bit of sleep planning for the next day, making sure that the meat has been defrosted, buying a really nice present for someone's birthday (no..... remembering this person is about to have a birthday AND buy the present ), keeping track of all the things needed for school...... and on and on I could go.

My point is this - there have been times when i've not wanted to compromise on a particular position (ie. for Hd to do x and not me) and it has been painful to hand over the reigns. I suppose it's a matter of what is more important: is it more important to hold onto your ideal, or have a perfect job done? easier said than done i have no advice, but i can relate.

Or maybe I've missed the point - is it more about your different values etc. re xmas or is it the whole ideal/standards thing?

__________________
poppyg

Me - 37
DH - 39

Last edited by poppyg : 28-12-2006 at 07:17 PM.

  #4      

cleaners

howdy,

Ioa, on your point about cleaners Ioa - quote:

"Of issue with me on this topic at present is the fact that most of my freinds in relationships (with kids ) who work outside the home employ a cleaner. This person is usually, but not exclusively female. Part of me just can't come at paying poor hourly rates for domestic chores. DO you???
I would rather have a scummy shower cubicle than feel guilty that somebody else who I might pay less per hour that I earn, cleaned it. Am I a sad tragic or does anybody else out there feel like I do on this issue?"

We don't employ a cleaner, though as I said my kids are now 13 and 10 - when they were much younger 3 and 1, my hubby got a 3 year contract in melbourne. Rather than all of us pack up and move (something I found impossible to confront at the time because i felt I was already working on a shoestring) I would have been leaving behind my very important social network in Canberra (i was in three playgroups) so he went down and rented a flat and just about every 4 to 6 weeks we went down for a couple of weeks or he came back here for a couple of weeks. A mobile family. One of my survival strategies at the time, however, was to employ a couple who came once a fortnight for 1 hours and they vacumned all the floors, washed the bathroom and kitchen floors, and maybe the bath - but that was wonderful at the time. We survived like this for two years and then my hubby mum became very unwell and he was able to negotiate the last year up here.

These days, even though I am pretty much full time and my hubby 3 days a week on one job and the other two days other various jobs, we have now pretty much dedicated saturdays to cleaning up days (not all day if we can help it) but the kids are part of this and they have jobs to do before they can go out. This feels right, even though it causes some stress trying to get the kids to do their jobs and between hubby and I at times (who is doing the most?!) I think we'll stick with this - not ideal, but for now, the best option we can come up with.

My ideal would be for both hubby and I to work 3 to 4 days a week each - that should give us enough time for all those bits and pieces without resorting to the cleaner. I definitely think it is worth it to get the kids doing jobs around the place and to get the message that they are a part of the house and need to contribute, both in jobs and in cooking - again an ideal - wouldn't it be lovely!!

On the point you made, Poppyg, on what I was getting at - yes definitely standards and values are part of it and beng able to let go!! But also what I had in mind was something from the Susan Maushart book about men's emotional dependence on women - the third child thing - and I am not saying that to be derogatory (I mean he could say the same about me, in that, I haven't brought in a good wage for years, he has subsidised my indulgences with the kids?! - another point for discussion) but on the first thing men's emotional dependence on women, yes, I think there is something to that - I'm sure he would genuinely want me to modycodel him much more (from time to time we set out to pamper, him, me (occasionally) and the kids (sometimes)) but it seems he would like more of this and feels somewhat agrieved that it doesn't happen much. You know someone looking after you - mothering you - wouldn't it be lovely if we could do that for each other. I recently heard about a new book called - Can Men Mother - what do you reckon?? I think this is difficult for them (generally). Do you know what I am getting at?

cheers, Ginalol

Last edited by mbhadmin : 19-01-2007 at 07:36 PM. Reason: addition

  #5    

'cleaners' post copied

Just letting everyone know that I've copied the post 'cleaners' by Joannie to another thread in this forum http://www.mothersbeheard.com/forums...?p=167#post167 so you can continue the interesting discussion on housework - and the title of this forum has been changed to better include these topics of discussion.

Feel free to keep posting in this thread but please try to stay with the theme of the original post.

Happy posting!

__________________
mbhadmin

  #6      

can men mother?

that's an interesting point Joannie and i think that you're right - that men do have difficulty mothering. I don't know about the emotional dependency thing though - i reckon that both men and women can be/are dependant on each other just in different ways. I do think that women take more responsibility in homelife (and this i think is where the mother thing comes in), and maybe secretly relish their abilities here which make it hard for them to hand over.

My question is why? do u think that it's b/c we are more socialized to mother/take responsibility for the home or do u think the evolutionary thing is just so engrained and/or we just programmed that way? I suppose it's really only been a relatively short space of time in history when men have accepted or been forced to take more responsibility in homelife. Ginalol - do u think for you that this still feels a bit tokenistic?

__________________
poppyg

Me - 37
DH - 39

  #7      

can men mother

Hi,

Sorry about the theme thing with the posts - you may need to change this one to a better place as its a topic that could well come up often?! Re your thoughts on this poppyg - did I mention that a woman in Canada has recently written a book with the same title Can men mother - Andrea (just can't think of her last name at the moment - will post later) - I heard her speak about it and wasn't able to buy the book at the time but expect to receive it shortly. The way she spoke on the day was that she really mused over the differences so I think it will be a thought provoking read. the first thing that came to mind for me was another book that was published in the 1970s and republished in the late 1990s and I believe has had a big influence in the US at least - called - The reproduction of mothering by Nancy Chodorow - which takes on the same question but from a different angle. Chodorow is a psychoanalyst and she presents an argument that within the cultural context of mid-20th century western culture - the traditional family - dad at work full time and mum at home with the kids - recreates gendered psychological dispositions so that the girls grow up and often eventually become mothers (and do the mothering/nurturing thing) and boys grow up (and become the providers). This is a very generalized theory (with many variations - for example class differences and cultural differences) but thats what theories do - they generalize. It is at least, I think, a way of explaining the way things are, in our culture and time, and valuable. The fact that she republished the book in the late 1990s without significant changes (I believe - would appreciate anyone's advice in this regard) means to me that the theory has been out there for at least two decades and hasn't been substantially refuted - interesting. Chodorow, suggests a way around the impass is for more men to mother and this will break down the cycle - and this is happening today - but the theory can help explain the many differences in focus and approach by men (generally) and women (generally) - in the main stream culture. There are other relevant quotes here - one is from Adrienne Rich, who also wrote a classic from the 1970s - Of woman born definitely worth a read - should be in the local libraries - where she said for men to mother was a revolutionary act (writing in the 70s) and that when they did the whole of society would have to change their focus regarding children - and this is were we are at (I reckon). what do you think??

cheers, Ginalol

Last edited by ginalol : 02-01-2007 at 09:27 AM.

  #8      

standards

well i think we are there at the moment. it's an interesting space to be. there certainly are more men who are taking on that traditional nuturing role and choosing to cut down work hours to be home with their kids which is great!

so i think we are at a place where men are starting to take (and assume) real shared parenting and 'mothering' but ..... back to your beef..... are they in a way that is to our satisfaction? CAN they? do u reckon your main beef was that your hubby didn't do the xmas thing to the standard you would have liked? b/c that's the beef that i hear from my friends; that hubby's are participating more in parenting/ homelife but that if they ask (and there u go... they still feel the need to ask) hubby to do x they are often not happy with the standard to which it is done. Grateful for the help, but essentially not happy with the standard.

so, sure, gendered psychological dispositions are no doubt recreated when girls and boys are socialized in this environment. Do u think that in time, with the eventual blurring of these traditional roles that men will do more than just respond to 'requests' and inately adopt the same standard of mothering/ homelife that seems to apply to the majority of women... or do u think that there will always be some sort of chasm b/w men and women re. the assumed responsibility and the quality of mothering/ home life? What do the books say that u have read? BTW - did u see my post in the 'Research...' section about Anne Crittenden?

loving our discussions

__________________
poppyg

Me - 37
DH - 39

  #9      

defining mothering

Quote:

i just re-read your post and i think i probably missed your point. you were more on about the mothering thing than the standards and i think i confused the two. i assumed that mothering = responsibilities for running the home. Do u mean can men be nuturing and caring of our feelings and that of our children? What do reckon the definition of 'mothering' is? Would love to hear views....... maybe we should have another thread 'can men mother?' what do u think?

__________________
poppyg

Me - 37
DH - 39

Last edited by poppyg : 04-01-2007 at 08:37 PM.

  #10      

the whole christmas thing

Yes, I think a thread called - can men mother - could be really interesting - would love to hear others thoughts on this.

cheers, Joannie

the whole christmas thing

Hi again Poppyg,

On the questions you raised in the early post re how things might change etc - I am inclined to think that Andrienne Rich was close to it when she said that men mothering was a revolutionary act because this would require the whole of society to change in relation to children. The way I see it our instituions have been established around the 'traditional family' dad at work and mum at home with the kids - the school hours 9 to 3 is an obvious example of this - along with the school holidays and the work / family stresses - and that there needs to be huge social changes (great ) but how do we want things to change? would would work for us - there are loads of questions and discussions to be had - parents need to be a political force and I don't mean throwing money at us to go away and get an extension and have another baby - one of the things I am going to look at for my research is residential planning - it is amazing how little work has been done on assumptions between home and family (traditional) that informs the current planning agenda when there are so many different types of families these days!! The House of reps standing committee report on work and family balance (a start) and the striking a balance HREOC reports (a start) but only that!! makes me feel tired (and energised (is that possible) thinking about it.

for now, Joannie

  #12      

myths

HI J and PG:

I really agree that part of the debate that has to be had is about what constitutes "family". If, and you may disagree, it takes a "village to raise a child" then, global or otherwise, we need to think and plan for people to live in communities and villages as functioning entities. J you are so right, about the structure of the working day and institutions supporting what has been with suburbs like dormitories etc

I'd also like to see community development on the agenda for infrastructure costs along with stormwater for new housing developments!

__________________
:::iona:::

  #13      

limitations

yeah, i think that the more we assume that there are different types of families out there the better.

and i think that there are lots of limitations within our society that prevent women from fully realizing their skills in the paid workforce (if they want), and men fully realizing their skills at home (if they want). On that note, i'm off to post in the Returning to Work forum.......

__________________
poppyg

Me - 37
DH - 39

  #14    

closing thread

this thread seems to have run it's course - will close it now so you can discuss related topics in other threads/forums.

happy posting!

__________________
mbhadmin